It cannot get dirtier, it can only get cleaner: Bina Paul

The National Award-winning editor believes that the feudal mindset existing in certain sections of the Malayalam film industry must go.

Bina Paul in Thiruvananthapuram in December 2016. Paul says that with the Hema Committee report, the sense that women exist in the film industry’s labour force and have to be acknowledged has become very important. | Photo Credit: MAHINSHA S

The Justice Hema Committee report released in August shed light on the widespread and persistent nature of sexual harassment in the Malayalam film industry. The report’s revelations have sparked a host of reactions, dividing both the industry and the society at large. The Women in Cinema Collective (WCC), a group of women from the industry initially formed in response to a woman actor being abducted and sexually assaulted in February 2017, has been at the forefront of advocating the release of the report and its findings.

Bina Paul, multiple National Award and Kerala State Film Award-winning film editor, is one of the WCC’s prominent faces. In an interview with Frontline, she says that the collective’s biggest achievement was putting gender issues on the agenda and hopes that the industry can come together to bring about systemic change. Edited excerpts:

What is it like to be a woman in cinema? This is one of the statements you made in a conclave recently.

Being a woman in cinema, to be able to work in cinema—it’s a great joy. But working conditions are far from ideal: for one, there is a great sense that you are a little bit inferior. Now I have done so many films, I cannot say that this happens now. But when I started, there was a lot of disbelief, suspicion, lack of confidence, all that mixed with your capability to be part of this world. And we were reportedly told you’re always suspect if you’re a woman.

Secondly, there’s always a sense that you have taken a man’s place, that you’re editing because of some reason. Not because you are worthy of this film, and therefore you have been chosen. So there is that lack of almost professionalism. I’ve had a great career, and I’ve been lucky to have worked with some of the best directors. However, at the assistant director or assistant editor level in the workplace, there are a lot of attitude problems. And so, you never feel confident enough to say “Yeah, I’ve achieved this because I’m a good editor”. It’s a little unsettling.

And WCC has made us think of all this. When you talk with women, you realise it’s not an individual experience. Just being with WCC and the women, these conversations make you realise that there is this problem.

You have won multiple National Awards and curated until recently the International Film Festival of Kerala (IFFK). At what point do you think, “I am fine, all these are nonsense”?

At no point, actually, because it’s quite interesting. As an editor, of course, I got the National Award for Revathi’s film [Mitr, My Friend (2002)], which was really wonderful because it was an all-women crew. We all worked together and really enjoyed it.

But as the artistic director of the IFFK, it was a tough experience right till the end. Basically, you always have a feeling it’s so male: the decision-making, the company—there is a discomfort all the time. I hope I was respected for my work, but you feel they don’t like you so much.

Coming to the Women in Cinema Collective itself: you are one of the founding members. What would you say characterises its main achievement?

That we pushed gender onto the agenda. There was never any talk till 2017. There was one policy meeting about the cinema policy—this was before 2017—and I remember saying, “Gender has to be there. Gender has to be there.” And everybody was surprised.

After WCC came to be, what has happened is that there is talk that there are problems in this industry concerning women’s participation, women’s workplace sexual harassment, women’s stories, and content. So this whole aspect, which had been ignored for years, has come up. And with the Hema Committee report, the sense that there are women in this labour force and they have to be acknowledged has become very important.

So when we speak about women, can all women be clubbed together, or are women on the technical side, like you, different from the women in front of the camera?

That is often a tricky question. Actors on a certain rung are far more privileged, but you cannot compare it with an art assistant or somebody who’s a hairstylist or costumer or assistant director. But the bottom line is the same. Their challenges may be different because an actor is obviously looked at in more commercial terms whereas the technician is replaceable and not really wanted on the set. If an assistant director, if there’s a girl and she leaves, who the hell cares?

So that difference is there. But what we have tried to focus on and address is the shared experience, which comes from certain gender issues.

The Hema Committee also makes it very clear that there are not enough women in technical spaces. Do they have special problems on or off the set and in other places of work?

I can only talk of Kerala, which is very different from even Tamil Nadu and the Mumbai film industry, where there is a large presence of women, be it at the level of storyboarding, scripting, etc. In Kerala, that has not happened yet. As a woman technician, the first thing that you face is being in a great minority. So on a set of 80 people, there may be three women—that itself is a challenge. You ask for a room, you ask for security, you ask for travel, you ask for anything extra—you are dispensable.

I was in editing rooms where I was the only woman for years. There will be an occasional dubbing artist but even in our sound studios, still there are very few women. I find them in Tamil Nadu, and in Bombay there are more women we’ve heard of. But not in Kerala. The interesting thing is that a lot of the girls who work in Bombay are Malayali, but they all go there because it is not very conducive here. It’s not misogyny fully like it’s not because they hate women or anything. There is no understanding of professional respect.

Since the Hema Committee report came out in the public domain, there has been disproportionate attention on the women actors. Do you think that’s good in the sense that it brings the focus onto the women in cinema itself?

Unfortunately, or fortunately, the Hema Committee opened a can of worms. Women suddenly felt that they could talk. Assistant directors, producers, actors have talked. Of course, the actors get the most attention because it is often related to the casting couch and the media plays that card quite a bit. There’s a lot of interest which becomes a little voyeuristic sometimes. But it’s a good thing. This pouring out needed to happen. People had to first face the fact that there is a problem.

Till now, every time WCC kept saying there is a problem, we were called troublemakers. “You want to dirty the industry. Malayalam cinema is the best in the world. And you all are saying these horrible things. You all are traitors. You all are feminists. Feminichi.” That was the big word used. So because of this outpouring, so many people have realised there is a report. Nobody would have read it otherwise. And it is now our business to draw it back to the core issue.

Mahila Congress activists stage a protest demanding a case against the perpetrators named in the Hema Committee report, in Thiruvananthapuram on August 21, 2024. | Photo Credit: PTI

How did this Hema Committee report come into being itself? We have not heard anything similar anywhere else in India which is initiated by women in cinema, forcing a government to act.

When I say gender became a thing, it was because of us. When we got together in 2017, after the abduction and all that, there was so much talk among us, of what women had been through.

And we did not even know how many women work in cinema. What are the various divisions that happen? So we asked the government: study the industry from a gender point of view. There are unions, there are associations, but what are the women in this as a labour force going through? So this was very important because more than the recommendations and the findings, we were interested to know what is happening here. And it has, unfortunately or fortunately, revealed exactly what we thought, well almost. Though the level of human rights violations is quite shocking. Things we hadn’t even heard of—separate food, people being treated differently—this was all absolutely shocking.

Somebody actually said that there is a hierarchy, even in the glasses that are used to serve tea. For instance, the top actors get it in porcelain and those lower down the order get it in a paper cup.

This is what we want to say: that this is a feudal way of operating. When it comes to hiring people, of course, you have to see personality and the person’s work. But at least believe that there is professionalism. Why does the rest of the country and the world do it? Is this the only creative industry? It is not. Everybody is making films. You have to submit your work and portfolios, actors have to go through auditions. You have to sign contracts, you have to know clearly your times of work. All these are part of it.

So the problem is that a kind of feudalism existed and did not change. Again, I’m not for corporatisation. I’m just saying that whatever your work, try and make sure that it’s a transparent and contemporary system. What does contemporary mean? Accepting that the world today is not what it was yesterday.

There are some 29 trades in the film industry itself. Is it possible to actually standardise each one’s work? Draw up contracts?

If there is a will, there is certainly a way. Everybody needs this. The light boys, costume guys—they work day in and day out. Who’s protecting their interests? There’s a whole lot of things that are just not taken into account when you look at this labour force.

This is the big thing: there were no contracts. In the last four years, after we’ve started shouting, there are some. It’s astonishing, actually. Everybody is shocked. Contracts are a very new thing in Malayalam, maybe about four or five years at most. And only certain kinds of professions get contracts—some are left out. And that’s where it’s through these cracks that all this feudalism plays out.

Is it possible to monitor the implementation of addressing other forms of exploitation besides sexual exploitation?

Of course. There have to be grievance redressal mechanisms. Supposing I don’t get my money on time, where do I go? There should be a system where I can complain and say, this person has not paid me or has not paid me as much as he promised me. Grievances, apart from the POSH [Prevention of Sexual Harassment] implementation.

India celebrates Malayalam cinema. Malayalis pride themselves in saying that this is the best cinema in the world. So why can’t they get these basic things right?

We are hoping that it will all get cleaned up. Frankly, nobody questioned it till now. You make [a film] quickly, go make a good film. It’s a very literate and creative society, therefore good cinema will come out of it. There is no question about it. But process is also important, which is what was never looked at.

Ever since the Hema Committee report was published, a lot has been going on in Malayalam media. What is the average person or avid movie watcher been telling you?

Well, two things. One side is, “Oh, we knew all along that it was happening.” The other side is that civil society is waking up to the fact that this kind of gender exploitation is more rampant than they even imagined. It’s quite divided. You have the kind of middle class who’s saying “Oh, these women are very interested in all these stories that are coming out” but not understanding what and why it’s happening. But there is a very strong section that is actually paying attention. And I believe that this is also going to alter gender questions.

Nowadays we see that outrage cannot last beyond three or five days unless an extremely powerful political party is behind the scenes. There have also been attempts to give work to one or two of you (of the WCC) and try and wean you off this cause. How difficult is it to take this moment forward?

It’s very difficult. As you said, there are structural problems within the organisation. There is backlash. A lot of people cannot continue to be involved because they don’t get work. But again we are saying: it’s not our job, it’s everybody’s job. All we can do as an advocacy group is say, “Clean it up.” Now, who does it? Whether it’s the government, whether it’s the associations... First of all, accept there’s a problem.

So I don’t think WCC is taking on a big mantle. All we are saying is there are problems, let’s all sit together and solve them. We are all professional women, we want to do other things. We don’t want to only be known as WCC. But at this moment it is important that we hold hands, stay together, and help. When you hear all these stories: that like any boy, a girl might dream of being an actor but when she comes here, her body becomes the main thing she has to use. That should never happen.

The Justice Hema Committee submitting its report to Kerala Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan in December 2019. Bina Paul says that the Committee opened a can of worms but reiterated it would force people to take notice and accept there is a problem. | Photo Credit: The Hindu Archives

Ever since the report came out, the government constituted the Special Investigation Team, and now there is a lot of confusion surrounding this women’s outpouring to the SIT. At the same time, there are FIRs being registered in some local police stations.

The alacrity with which the government formed the SIT was something else—it was like within three days. But we are very concerned: about privacy issues, that a lot of these stories happened when this outpouring took place. It was also a kind of dam that burst. And you remembered something that happened 15 or 20 years ago. What is really preoccupying us now is that: are there terms of reference? Who are the people? Are they sensitive enough to deal with these issues? Have they got the experience to deal with women who are very traumatised?

We are not looking only for punitive action. We are looking for healing as well. And therefore, there should be lawyers, counsellors, etc. If somebody wants to take punitive action, it is absolutely their right. And this is not to protect perpetrators—what we are saying is the choice is the woman’s, please let her make it. Do not push her into lifelong litigation and public defamation positions.

There is this confusion that FIR is the path for anybody who wants to take punitive legal action and SIT is for the larger resolution of the issue. Is that the way that it’s being looked at?

We don’t know. One, there are no terms of reference given to us. Two, what we have heard is the SIT is asking women, “Do you want to file FIR?” And there seems to be some coercion. We don’t think a lot of the women are equipped to deal with this. So we are saying to the government: look, you set up an SIT, but what is its mandate? And how are you looking at the bigger picture?

The court wants an Internal Complaints Committee (ICC) on every film set. Is it not better to set this up as an independent body with the producers’ council or something like that, where it is truly independent and not dependent on the whims and fancies of a particular film set?

No. It’s a two-level thing. ICCs, on the whole, all over the country under the POSH Act—everybody’s talking about how it’s always the powerful who set up the ICCs. But the lack of the ICC is also problematic. If on a film set, somebody continuously keeps rubbing themselves against me, where do I go? Do I go running to the producer over there? Or I get SMS, WhatsApp messages... The whole gamut of sexual harassment is so wide and so invisibilised in our society that it has to be addressed at the local level.

Now, beyond that, if there are issues, we are saying there must be a more centralised system. The ICCs at the local level have to be set up in a transparent way. There has to be widespread information that there is an ICC so you know who to go to. Because an ICC also becomes preventive, when people know that they are going to be complained against, they will be a little more cautious. And there has to be gender sensitisation training at every level—the union level, the association level. I have signed “no tolerance to any sexual harassment” forms. When you sign your contract, say, “I will not indulge.” That kind of systemic intervention is required.

Do you think a POSH committee certification is mandatory for every movie before it is released? Will it work?

This is a good question. If you can say “no animals were harmed,” you have to say that the POSH Act has been followed. It’s also setting an example. When you have deep-seated attitudes, you have to do every little thing to change them. So every time a person goes and sees, first of all, they’ll ask, “What is POSH?” So these are not big things, but are chipping away at attitudes.

Initially, as soon as the Hema Committee report came out, we saw the Association of Malayalam Movie Actors (A.M.M.A) being disbanded. But has that attitude undergone any change at the level of those people who matter?

The union has been having a series of consultations, meetings, etc. But the problem is they still look at WCC as the enemy. It is all about “these WCC women, this, that.” So it’s quite irresponsible to have sort of just said, “Oh, we are not responsible.” Nobody is holding one person responsible. Everybody is saying it’s systemic. It starts from the top, it goes to the bottom. It’s about young girls and boys coming and having no idea about sexuality, about consent. How do you grow them to be professional and be responsible citizens? This is what we’re asking.

Look, it’s not wrong to be attracted. It’s not wrong to want to have relationships. But be mindful, and understand that there are terms on which these things happen. That is the most important thing. This is not moral policing or saying don’t have relationships. But when you are in a power situation, you have to understand how it works.

Is there clarity on where the Malayalam industry and the film industry as a whole are headed? Because WCC has certain demands. But the men seem to be pushing back: they want to concede some ground, but not too much.

It will change. There is a cinema policy that we want to be involved with. We are coming up with a whole set of recommendations. There’s a manthan (churning) that’s taking place and something good will emerge. It cannot get dirtier, it can only get cleaner.