India on the right track

Interview with Dr. Georges Vendryes, French nuclear scientist.

IN the past one year, breeder reactors have come into sharp focus in India following the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal. The country had taken a firm stand in its negotiations with the United States that it would not put its breeder reactors under International Atomic Energy Agency's (IAEA) safeguards. Earlier, there was intense debate in India whether it was wise to go in for breeder reactors. Right now, a 13 MWe Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) is operational at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR) at Kalpakkam. A 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor is also under construction here. The Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) plans to build four more FBTRs of 500 MWe capacity each before 2020. The IGCAR is responsible for designing and developing breeders in India.

In an interview to Frontline on July 18 at Mamallapuram (Mahabalipuram), eminent French nuclear scientist Dr. Georges Vendryes, the father of breeder reactors, asserted that India's policy of developing breeders was "quite right". This was his third visit to India.

Dr. Vendryes began his career as a nuclear physicist under Prof. Frederic Joliot-Curie at the "Synthese Atomique" Laboratory, France, in 1948. Between 1952 and 1970, he held various positions in the French Atomic Energy Commission (CEA). He took over as Director of Nuclear Reactors' Research and Development, CEA in 1971 and became vice-president, Industrial Nuclear Applications, CEA, in 1974. At present he is its Honorary Executive Vice-President. He has made outstanding contributions in research on nuclear energy, especially in the area of fast breeder reactor technology. He has received several awards and honours from organisations and countries including Germany, the U.S., Japan and China.

It was during the United Nations Conference on Science and Technology Development in 1979 that Dr. Vendryes, after hearing Walter Zinn of the Argonne National Laboratory, U.S., speak about the promise of breeder reactors, said to himself, "We have to develop breeders." From then on, he worked with passion and determination on the CEA's breeder programme and became a proponent of sodium-cooled fast breeder reactor technology.

Excerpts from the interview:

At an Indo-French seminar in 1992, eminent French nuclear scientist Dr. Bertrand Goldschmidt observed that in nuclear matters, India and France were prepared to flirt with each other but not really go to bed. Do you think it is time India and France stopped flirting and went to bed?

We had in the past wonderful cooperation which, unfortunately, was interrupted in the mid-1970s for reasons you know well. I hope that in the future, possibly within one or two years, new conditions will arise that will open up opportunities for the renewal of our cooperation. I am looking forward to such cooperation taking place again.

France stepped in to supply enriched uranium for the Tarapur reactors when the U.S. reneged on its contract after Pokhran I. Why didn't the Indo-French collaboration in nuclear matters take off from there? Did it fail to firm up because France was insisting that India should sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?

We made that gesture (of supplying enriched uranium to Tarapur-1 and 2 reactors) because we wanted to show our goodwill to India but when France signed the NPT in 1992, conditions became more and more difficult for continuing the close cooperation.

In your speech today, you said the Indian nuclear industry suffered from isolation, and that you hoped that with the recent visits of U.S. President George W. Bush and French President Jacques Chirac to India, "the present unwanted situation will soon terminate". France wants to build four reactors at Jaitapur, a coastal site in Maharashtra.

I have to tell you that I am here to express my own personal opinion, and that I am not at all here as a representative of the French government or the CEA or the French industry. I am not at all involved [with them] because I retired many years ago. I am not at all involved in the discussions, which are taking place right now between the Indian and the French governments. I do not know the details at all. So I cannot make any comments on that.

The only thing I can say is that I personally hope that these discussions will have a satisfactory outcome, satisfactory to both sides, and this will make it possible to renew some sort of collaboration in the future.

You are the father of the breeder reactor.This is too much!

You were the architect of the SuperPhenix breeder reactor in France. You said at Kalpakkam today that the "Hanuman jump" that the DAE was making from the 13 MWe FBTR to the 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (PFBR) under construction at Kalpakkam was "a bold one". Do you think India is on the right path in the matter of breeder reactors?

Oh, yes. Definitely so. This policy, this decision to develop fast breeder reactors in India, was made early, at the time of Homi Bhabha, a few years after India became independent. I think this policy is quite right. I can only approve it. It is a good way to develop nuclear energy first by using thermal reactors to produce plutonium, and then using the plutonium with depleted natural uranium to produce more plutonium in the fast breeder reactors. This is a logical way to proceed. I approve it fully.

My point is that it so happens right now that the number of countries that are active in fast breeders has unfortunately decreased very much. The French government made a very bad decision to shut down the SuperPhenix and this means that there will be an interruption of several years in fast breeders' development in France. Now only Russia, Japan, China and India have an active interest in fast breeders. That means when India is building its PFBR, it is somewhat alone in the world. It cannot benefit from the exchanges with many other countries because other countries do not at present, unfortunately, develop fast breeder reactors.

The fact that you are alone makes your work more difficult, very challenging, and in my opinion, this is the reason why you have to proceed with extreme cautiousness. This does not mean that you are wrong in going that way. Not at all. But you have to go that way with great caution in order to be sure that you will arrive at your goal.

Why did the French government shut down the SuperPhenix?

For political reasons, which have nothing to do with technical or economic reasons. It was because the Green Party made an electoral pact with the Socialists that the latter should shut down the SuperPhenix (if their alliance came to power). Unfortunately, this is what happened in 1997. It was a very unfortunate decision. It is a major mistake. Well, we have to live with it.

Do you think that fast breeder reactors will get a fresh lease of life in France?

Yes, I am sure that fast breeder reactors will be developed in France and other countries as well in future because you cannot imagine long-term use of nuclear energy without breeders. Breeder reactors are really the ultimate goal of nuclear energy from fission.

Why is Russia pressing ahead with breeders now? The Japanese went ahead with breeders too but had a problem with the Monju reactor.

The Japanese had a leak of sodium [from Monju]. As a consequence, Monju remained shut down for many years. But recently, after a series of safety inquiries, the Japanese government decided to repair the damage and start the reactor again. So, maybe in two years from now, Monju will operate.

The Russians are operating a 600 MWe fast breeder reactor. They have said that they will build a bigger one, of 800 MWe capacity, at the same location. In France, President Chirac instructed the CEA early this year to start preliminary studies on an advanced reactor, which is indeed a breeder. I think that within a couple of years, the design of this new reactor will be completed; the objective is to put this reactor into service in 2020.

You spoke about how India overcame several obstacles after it conducted its first nuclear test at Pokhran in 1974. The Nuclear Suppliers' Group asked its members not to sell light water reactors to India because India was not a signatory to the NPT. So do you think that these embargoes, sanctions and technology denial regimes work?

I cannot make any comments on that because this is a highly political question. Again, I cannot make comments on French government policy. High-level discussions are going on between France and India, and India and the United States. I firmly hope that within a few years, India will again find its due place in the mainstream of international nuclear community and get out of its isolation, which was pitiful.

How do you battle the propaganda that fish are killed by the coolant waters let into the sea?

There is no more controversy about this problem. I cannot exactly tell you why it died down. Anti-nuclear movements always raise problems, which are based on false statements. But there comes a time when the truth is revealed.

In the wake of the Chernobyl accident, do you think nuclear energy can really come back?

Yes, definitely. British Prime Minister Tony Blair announced recently that his government was in favour of a renewal of nuclear energy there. In many countries, there is interest in nuclear energy. Do you know that Finland, for instance, ordered an advanced light water reactor from France two years ago? It is of 1,500 MWe capacity. Possibly, they will discuss more reactors. This is not decided but it is under discussion in Finland.

How many reactors does France have?

Fifty-eight. All are light water reactors except for Phenix, which is a small breeder reactor and is, by the way, the oldest nuclear reactor operating in France. It started operating in 1974 and is still operating. Phenix has a capacity of 200 MWe.

Why is China showing so much of interest in nuclear power?

Why are you surprised that China is interested in nuclear reactors? China is in the same situation as India. They have tremendous energy needs. It is normal that they believe nuclear energy can contribute to the generation of electricity in future. They are making decisions similar to those India has made.

But China has enough coal.

They have possibly more coal than you have. But the coal deposits in China are located in the northwestern parts of the country. Transportation of coal in a country that is very big is not easy. Similar is the case in India.

Do you predict a bright future for India in building breeder reactors, thorium reactors and so on?

You are definitely on the right path. I admire what you have done. I admire what you are preparing to do. You are on the right track.